Curse

Edge Martinez · Apr 25, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

I'll give any PUG a go. I don't care what professions are in it. Naturally if we don't have a monk or some other profession, I'd request someone bring something to fill the void, but if they won't... oh well, lets see how it goes. PvE is not competitive for me... it's fun and unlocking stuff. And PvP? I'm not rank 3 or above, so I join whatever group invites me plain and simple. The most fun I ever had in PvP was accepting an invitation to a group of 8 Mesmer/Monks. All the cookie cutter builds were kind of taken off guard. Eventually we lost on the map where you had to collect more relics than the other team, but we got alot of fame in that one run.

ExDeity · Apr 25, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

ExDeity. You have never ran an infuse monk before. Come back after you do that for about 2 hours, then tell me that playing the game is about hitting number keys 1-8. Then tell me skill has anything to do with your build.

There is no such thing as skill when playing guild wars, unless you choose to throw "skill" in with the "strategy" element of the game, which is all it has. Period.

And I'm sorry, but after playing the same first-person shooter for 2 years, and still learning something new about the game with each day that passes, I have to say that Guild Wars is of no comparison in difficulty.

I can teach my cat to pound away at keys at random, and he'd have moderate success in comparison to the morons we have playing in the Random Arenas.

Good luck finding that in a game that requires reflexes, not number-pushing.

For these reasons, I do not consider merely the timing of repetitive key presses to be a deciding factor in "skill" on this game. When I think of skill, I think of strategy. I do not play this game because it tests my reflexes. It doesn't. I play this game because the skill involved is done before heading to battle- the stragetic elements of picking a build are all the "skill" a player needs. Guild Wars is noob-friendly. This explains why the game has so many of them. This also explains why players like yourself attempt to impress me by boasting, via implication, that you have played an Infuse build where as I have apparently not (your words, not mine).

Sorry. Not impressed. There is no skill used in Guild Wars that requires a level of difficulty that a 4 year old with a decent-enough attention span couldn't master with a day's worth of practice. Pressing a key enables a skill. Contrary to the title of said skill, it requires very little of it to pull off.

The only aspect of guild wars that is even moderately difficult is timing a single key press to interrupting a player's skill, most of which give ample time to perform the action desired.

While what I just pointed out may appear as off-topic to some people, yourself included, according to the private message you sent me, consider this:

If we strip away the notion that guild wars is a game of skilled EXECUTION in key pressing, and rather believe in the idea that an overwhelming majority of the game's results take place before the fight even starts, cookie-cutter builds are further proven to be a worthless addition to a very fun game that requires a certain degree of originality to master (The founders of these "cookie-cutter builds" are the exceptions to the rule- in their case, originality is rewarded to the point of WHORING, or exploiting)

Muse of Shadows · Apr 25, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

ExDiety,

Strategy is NOT skill. Strategy involves knowing how skills work with each other, the lay of the maps, and how to use the above to your advantage.
Skill, on the other hand, is the ability to know when to use the right skill, on the right target, at the right time, when you do not know what you are going to face beforehand, and doing a good job at it.

Iway requires little skill because, no matter who they face, they do the same thing over and over, hoping it will win. The various balanced groups require moderate skill as they need to improvise their tactics in mid-combat often to keep from loosing, depending on what build they face. Using a unique build effectivly, especialy if members of the team have not played it before, requires great skill, as most unique builds focus on one or two key strategies, with a few utility type skills, and must often improvise to keep ahead in the combat.

The above of course does not apply to all unique and balanced groups, along with other various builds, but to the majority that I have seen.

Skill has a great deal to do with success in high-end PvP in Guild Wars, and I would like to know what FPS you are playing for that long and still dont know about - I know of only one such game, and I cant even confirm its true, because what I know of it was told to me by friends, not from me acualy playing it.

Moa Bird Cultist · Apr 25, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

If, ExDeity, there is no such thing as skill in Guild Wars, then I propose you back up that comment. Quite simply, all you have to do is go defeat the last pride in an unrated GvG match. If skill is truly unimportant, then you should have no trouble defeating them and coming back to us. Now you can give the old but the last pride use strategy in planning their builds, but your logic is lacking. Any group of 8 could pick up a last pride team build and play. But how long do you think they'd last in all honesty? And to be honest it looks like you've overdosed a little on cookie cutter rage, so you know what? Chill man, chill, to each their own. And with regards to not being impressed by the 'boasting' that is going on in this thread...

Quote:

I can teach my cat to pound away at keys at random, and he'd have moderate success in comparison to the morons we have playing in the Random Arenas.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed either. If you have a point to make, please dont make it in such a way as to attempt to insinuate angry responses from everyone who has posted in this thread. You havent even remained on topic. This thread was, I'm sure, not intended to be a rant, nor was it a thread on the skill required to use a cookie cutter build. Going back to your original post, players who play the cookie cutter scene have EVERY right to defend the way they play the game, It's their choice, not yours or mine and I say good luck to them, if thats the way they want their guild wars, then so be it. It doesnt diminish my enjoyment of what is an excellent game. Ultimately that is the most important aspect. Guild wars is a truly excellent game and even those of the community who whine and biatch 24/7 about how something needs to be changed/nerfed/made easier, in their heart of hearts truly enjoy playing it. How they go about this up to them.

Therefore the mentality of an average cookie cutter player is this: A player of guild wars who is perfectly happy with their vision of the game, it is really as simple as that.

NinjaKai · Apr 25, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

I say to hell with common builds. I've seen available and I prefer my own builds, since the current selection is rather tasteless. Why focus on spamming a single spell when I can enjoy playing around and adjusting my own builds.

NinjaKai · Apr 25, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExDeity

And I'm sorry, but after playing the same first-person shooter for 2 years, and still learning something new about the game with each day that passes, I have to say that Guild Wars is of no comparison in difficulty.

You can't really compare Guild Wars to a first person shooter. Two different genre of games so different in purpose can't be compared. Unless Guild Wars got a cannon or gun update I didn't know about.

Ado · Apr 25, 2006, 11:24 AM // 11:24

When playing a "new" build, you have to test it, tweak it, test it again etc etc, untill you've found a way for it to be effective. Since this is timeconsuming many ppl stick to the cookie builds from which they know there's a big chance of winning.

Kakumei · Apr 25, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExDeity

"TUCH RANGAR SPIKE!!one"

I was almost agreeing with you up til there. That joke is old and dead, and to see its use is just sad.

KvanCetre · Apr 25, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Late into the thread:
My friend, My Fiancee, and I form a Monk, Monk, Ranger trio. We're up to Thunderhead now(Iron Mines last night) and since I'm group leader, I pretty much take anyone who wants to join. I prefer to get at least one or two warriors... but I even take Mesmers(gasp!).
It's usually just the first 5 people to request... Haven't lost a single mission yet.
Of course, Thunderhead and RoF are up now :\

SpeedyKQ · Apr 25, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

People worry way too much about whether or not their build is original, rather than whether it works.

Refusal to try out "cookie-cutter" builds so you can be a special unique snowflake is stupid.

Refusal to try new stuff because it isn't the accepted standard is equally stupid.

Experiment with skills and try to honestly figure out what is working best, and run with that. If it is the cookie-cutter, so be it. If it isn't, thats OK too. Just lose the idea that "I must be unique" or "I must not be unique".

Sagius Truthbarron · Apr 25, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExDeity

There is no such thing as skill when playing guild wars, unless you choose to throw "skill" in with the "strategy" element of the game, which is all it has. Period.

And I'm sorry, but after playing the same first-person shooter for 2 years, and still learning something new about the game with each day that passes, I have to say that Guild Wars is of no comparison in difficulty.

I can teach my cat to pound away at keys at random, and he'd have moderate success in comparison to the morons we have playing in the Random Arenas.

Good luck finding that in a game that requires reflexes, not number-pushing.

For these reasons, I do not consider merely the timing of repetitive key presses to be a deciding factor in "skill" on this game. When I think of skill, I think of strategy. I do not play this game because it tests my reflexes. It doesn't. I play this game because the skill involved is done before heading to battle- the stragetic elements of picking a build are all the "skill" a player needs. Guild Wars is noob-friendly. This explains why the game has so many of them. This also explains why players like yourself attempt to impress me by boasting, via implication, that you have played an Infuse build where as I have apparently not (your words, not mine).

Sorry. Not impressed. There is no skill used in Guild Wars that requires a level of difficulty that a 4 year old with a decent-enough attention span couldn't master with a day's worth of practice. Pressing a key enables a skill. Contrary to the title of said skill, it requires very little of it to pull off.

The only aspect of guild wars that is even moderately difficult is timing a single key press to interrupting a player's skill, most of which give ample time to perform the action desired.

While what I just pointed out may appear as off-topic to some people, yourself included, according to the private message you sent me, consider this:

If we strip away the notion that guild wars is a game of skilled EXECUTION in key pressing, and rather believe in the idea that an overwhelming majority of the game's results take place before the fight even starts, cookie-cutter builds are further proven to be a worthless addition to a very fun game that requires a certain degree of originality to master (The founders of these "cookie-cutter builds" are the exceptions to the rule- in their case, originality is rewarded to the point of WHORING, or exploiting)

I told you not to respond unless you have play an infuser for 2 hours. You have no idea what you are talking about and I am starting to think you are the one running these "TUCH RAGNARS" you keep refering to.

It is obvious that you have never GvGed or HA'ed before, or atleast not often enough to know what the game is about or how to play it. If you did, you would not refer to the Random Arena so often.

Anyone saying that the game's skill is about builds alone does not how to play the game, and they are complaining mearly for the sole reason that they are not competent enough to beat even Cookie Cutter builds.

The point is here, every class uses skill. Most builds require being taught them, and they require training in them. If you have never seen a build that required the use of skill, I would say that you have never PvPed before. Example: Adrenelin Spiking warriors, hammer warriors, Shock Warriors, interrupt rangers, debshot rangers, migraine mesmers, shutdown mesmers, any monk type, but considerable Infusal Monks.

And those are just very common builds, "cookie cutter" builds, and yet they require skill. An unskilled or inexpirienced person could not roll one of these builds and play them well. Why? Becuase it requires skill and expirience.

Braggi · Apr 25, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

I think the whole cookie-cutter-build posts and replies are OT and obscuring the issue. This is about group setup.

to the OP:
Hard to define without starting a rant, because this phenomenon is as old as multiplayer. I remember this from Pen&Paper (but there you usually have better group control). In UO, where people power-grinded their avatar to multi-GM, because you couldn't play before

. In WoW, where players balked at the thought to start an instance without the tank/healer-combo. Why should GW be different?

I can understand if someone has little time to spend for a task and doesn't want to risk it on experiments.
I can understand if so wants to try a special setup and needs a complement.
But is this realy always the reason?

A part may be screening (trying to sift weak members by minimum requirements, most often min Level. As criteria usually to crude). Can also do this by asking for a specific build or skills or using cryptic abreviations obscure to the unwashed

.
And never ask what you don't know, this always puts you "one down"...

Without voice chat, communicating sth complicated is tedious. Singing out of the same book obviously saves a lot of time. But when things go wrong (like one singing hymn 134 while the other hums 136) they most often rage quit, because this is all "a waste of time". And they have no way to cross the communication barrier. They often don't even see it, its just the group of other players being obviously unfit.

This "Momo", no-time-to-waste thing seems to be central, maybe MMO is for many players about "achievement". So if they "waste" their time, it is a loss in their context. Time to communicate except the most essential? Wasted. This limits a big population to a few, well understood group concepts.

But most often IMO people stop learning prematurely. They think, now they know most of what is to know, not even realizing there's other ways to do things. If you're doing fine then there's no need to change anything... And if sth goes wrong, they have no plan again how to find out the reason and adapt.
Often these are the same people who don't take the time to communicate the group's builds or help an inexperienced player fill his role (me tank, u heal, rest do damage. good plan

- gogogo is better still...)

I remember a certain early instance in WoW especially well. The first try was a disaster - a higher level group that never took the time to contemplate why things went wrong. No surprise we didn't make it, though all relevant classes were there.
The second group was lower level, but we took the first encounters to reflect what happened and how we could improve. This soon paid heavy dividend, so we finished it, fast, save and happy. But then WoW instances are usually longer than gw ones.

felinette · Apr 25, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

I do however dont want to join a pug of your " good Ideas" and carry you through a mission because your build doesnt work worth a dang...

a PUG consists of a simple concept.. hence the name PICK UP GROUP... we are not there to test things with you.. we are there to achieve an end result in the quickest method possible.. thats done with "cookie-cutter builds" because simply enough they work very effectively...

Both my cookie-cutter and non-cookie-cutter builds work fine. I don't need a PUG to carry me through a mission or to test a new build. They're builds I've been running with for a while. In fact, I said in my OP that I hate going out with a PUG with a new (meaning untested) build because I'm not likely to be very good at using it, so I just won't do that. When I do change a build, even if it's just a couple of skills, I usually take henchies out somewhere for 15-20 minutes to get used to the new skills and see if they work well. I'd never use PUGs for that. People here, AFAIK, are talking about builds that work but aren't cookie-cutter.

Also keep in mind that a cookie-cutter build isn't a guarantee of efficiency or success. I've been out with plenty of "cookies" who had no idea what they were doing and had to be carried through by the "non-cookies" and the "cookies" who knew how to use their skills effectively.

And not all PUGs are out to achieve an end result in the quickest way possible. Many of the PUGs I've been in are out there to have fun.

Quote:

I think the whole cookie-cutter-build posts and replies are OT and obscuring the issue. This is about group setup.

Yes, thank you. Cookie-cutter builds themselves were never the issue.

Kurow · Apr 25, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Dear ExDiety,

Through logical analysis, we see that the in competition with other real players, IE humans, the difficulty is relative to the two player's ability levels. Now, if there was any truth to your numerous statements about how the game only takes a cat pressing on a key board, then no one would play it. If we look at the game realistically, instead of taking up a close minded and ill informed view, then we see that through competition against other players, and a wide array of mediums through which to compete against these players, there's always a challange. Well, this is unless you are the best player in the world, but really, what are the chances of that? Anyway, insinuating that any online game is so easy a four year old could play it, wait no you said that, well saying that is quite ridiculous, because no one would play a game that easy. Unless you have some way to explain your hypothesis', I would have to assume that they are drawn from inadequate experience and possibly from misconceptions of grandeur.

ExDeity · Apr 25, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moa Bird Cultist

If, ExDeity, there is no such thing as skill in Guild Wars, then I propose you back up that comment. Quite simply, all you have to do is go defeat the last pride in an unrated GvG match. If skill is truly unimportant, then you should have no trouble defeating them and coming back to us. Now you can give the old but the last pride use strategy in planning their builds, but your logic is lacking. Any group of 8 could pick up a last pride team build and play. But how long do you think they'd last in all honesty? And to be honest it looks like you've overdosed a little on cookie cutter rage, so you know what? Chill man, chill, to each their own. And with regards to not being impressed by the 'boasting' that is going on in this thread...

Sorry, but I'm not impressed either. If you have a point to make, please dont make it in such a way as to attempt to insinuate angry responses from everyone who has posted in this thread. You havent even remained on topic. This thread was, I'm sure, not intended to be a rant, nor was it a thread on the skill required to use a cookie cutter build. Going back to your original post, players who play the cookie cutter scene have EVERY right to defend the way they play the game, It's their choice, not yours or mine and I say good luck to them, if thats the way they want their guild wars, then so be it. It doesnt diminish my enjoyment of what is an excellent game. Ultimately that is the most important aspect. Guild wars is a truly excellent game and even those of the community who whine and biatch 24/7 about how something needs to be changed/nerfed/made easier, in their heart of hearts truly enjoy playing it. How they go about this up to them.

Therefore the mentality of an average cookie cutter player is this: A player of guild wars who is perfectly happy with their vision of the game, it is really as simple as that.

I'll respond to your comment because I liked it best.

You seemed to have missed the point when I referred to Guild Wars as not being a skilled game. I never said such a thing. What I did say, however, was that pressing the number keys to activate various spells and skills that the game has provided us with does not take a great deal of USER SKILL.

There is a difference. Especially considering that I gave my opinion on what I DO consider skill in Guild Wars, which was choosing a build that best counters, and, hopefully, defeats the opposing team. Choosing a build -using strategy, mind you- is where the skill in this game lies. Not in the execution of what your character performs on the screen. If I had to type more than one key at a time, or at least press the keys faster than is required, an effort that would take moderate difficulty, then I would refrain from arguing this point because it would be an act in futility.

I do not make many comparisons between Guild Wars and first person shooters. The only comparison worth nothing was that Guild Wars is a game of strategy, where as a first person shooter is a combination of strategy and keyboard/mouse timed execution. There is precision involved in first person shooters. In Guild Wars, there is a margin of error. There have been times I have pressed the wrong key by mistake, only to end up with a similar result by choosing a skill that was nearly as effective.

The keys we press do not make us competitive gamers. The competitive aspect in Guild Wars lies in what we do BEFORE pressing keys. THAT was the point I was trying to make.

As for me being able to prove that Guild Wars isn't a game of skill by beating the guild you mentioned, what does that have to do with the point I was arguing? There are so many factors that can limit an individual player from winning that have absolutely nothing to do with his personal skill as a player.

Many of you have made the remarks that Guild Wars is a team game. Well, if my team is among the worst players in the game, it really doesn't matter how good I am, because a good player can only give so much output in the game. It is like that for a reason, and that reason is that GW is indeed a team game, not one left up to individual players to "prove something" when their current situation will not allow it.

My guild rarely GvG's, and no, I do not play outside of RA or TA when I play the occasional game of PvP. I only occasionally play PvE, come to think of it, but I have logged enough hours into both sects of this game to give my opinion on how much skill the game requires, and in which aspects skill can be measured.

All of my "rants" were not knocks on Guild Wars. If I felt the game didn't allow for any skill, I would not be playing it. Unfortunately, a few of you seemed to take my FPS analogy the wrong way, and I'm now labeled as someone whining about how the game needs change.

The game doesn't need change. The players need to change. They need to stop throwing unoriginal builds into the mix because it accomplishes nothing but a nostalgic reminder of the same build I ran into last week that failed just as miserably as the first time I saw it a week before THAT.

You use the term rage. I see it's a cliche in guild wars. While I appreciate the patronizing connotation associated with "rage" as it applies to gamers who seem "angry" or "disgruntled" about certain events, I don't see how I fit into the category.

I did not take any of these remarks personally; I do not let them affect my personal life. I am not an angry gamer. I am simply somebody trying to keep the fun in the game by preserving its originality, because a stale game is only going to be fun for people who enjoy repetition.

ExDeity · Apr 26, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurow

Dear ExDiety,

Through logical analysis, we see that the in competition with other real players, IE humans, the difficulty is relative to the two player's ability levels. Now, if there was any truth to your numerous statements about how the game only takes a cat pressing on a key board, then no one would play it. If we look at the game realistically, instead of taking up a close minded and ill informed view, then we see that through competition against other players, and a wide array of mediums through which to compete against these players, there's always a challange. Well, this is unless you are the best player in the world, but really, what are the chances of that? Anyway, insinuating that any online game is so easy a four year old could play it, wait no you said that, well saying that is quite ridiculous, because no one would play a game that easy. Unless you have some way to explain your hypothesis', I would have to assume that they are drawn from inadequate experience and possibly from misconceptions of grandeur.

I've seen enough polysyllabic words in this paragraph to prepare me for my English exam next year. Thank you.

Once again, you seem to have taken my definition of what is determined as "skill" in Guild Wars the wrong way. Perhaps I worded it incorrectly. I will own up to that much, but I will not apologize or retract my statements, as they, for the most part, hold true to my intentions in posting in this thread.

Guild Wars takes a great deal of skill. (Satisfied? Please read all of my post, this time.) The skill it requires, however, is not to be measured by a player's reaction time when pressing one of 8 keys on the keyboard.

I do believe I made a comment about my cat, or perhaps it was a 4 year old (or both?) being able to do what many of you brag about being a fair display of "skill". I hold true to that claim.

What I didn't say, however, was that a 4 year old, or a cat, could come up with a build successful enough to defeat another team's. The reason? Doing so requires SKILL. Strategy is the skill in Guild Wars. Not key execution.

VIB · Apr 26, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I think that the "cookie cutter" mentality will always be part of human nature in every sense. Not only in the PvE missions you described, but you will also notice that most successfull PvP guilds play using the general build. And it goes further, I've played a whole bunch of games before and this mentality has been all over. In FPS games most profissional teams plays the exact same positioning in specific maps. In RTS games most players will always follow the exact same build order no matter what. In RPGs once a guild gets a world first kill on a specific boss, everyone else will use the same exact strategy to beat him.

It's a very simple behavior to understand. It is the "If it works so good that way, why would I ever want to try anything else?". You might find several arguments as to why you should try something else. Such as "you might find something better" or simple because "it is more fun". But the general consensus is that if you want to win, and you know that going cookie cutter you can win, and if you don't it might be risky. You don't wanna be risky, you wanna win.. so you simply go cookie cutter.

ExDeity · Apr 26, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIB

I think that the "cookie cutter" mentality will always be part of human nature in every sense. Not only in the PvE missions you described, but you will also notice that most successfull PvP guilds play using the general build. And it goes further, I've played a whole bunch of games before and this mentality has been all over. In FPS games most profissional teams plays the exact same positioning in specific maps. In RTS games most players will always follow the exact same build order no matter what. In RPGs once a guild gets a world first kill on a specific boss, everyone else will use the same exact strategy to beat him.

It's a very simple behavior to understand. It is the "If it works so good that way, why would I ever want to try anything else?". You might find several arguments as to why you should try something else. Such as "you might find something better" or simple because "it is more fun". But the general consensus is that if you want to win, and you know that going cookie cutter you can win, and if you don't it might be risky. You don't wanna be risky, you wanna win.. so you simply go cookie cutter.

Exactly. Well put. Everyone can forget anything I added to this argument, because you summed up my thoughts in a very polite, to-the-point manner that I was unable to add to the thread.

Muse of Shadows · Apr 26, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

ExDiety,

Stratigising does not require any skill whatsoever - putting together a build in such a way as to acomidate for what the opponent may through at you requires knowledge of the skills out there and how they work. Executing that plan is what requires the skill.

Do you realy think that if someone goes and does 150 hours of reserch to figure out exactly how every skill works with every other skill, and in what ways, and how to counter them, then forms a build with that knowledge, but has not played more than 20 hours himself would acualy be able to pull it off effectivly?

Like I said before, experiance playing in the acual game, as well as the ability to adapt, and use the correct skills at the right time, often needing to be precise withen 1 second or less, that is skill. Knowing what to bring and how it works in theory is called knowledge/reserch - two VERY different things.

Edit - forgot to mention that this is also reflected in real life - do you see generals fighting the battle, or soldiers planning the combat? No. Generals do the stratagizing, relying on the soldiers skills and abilitys to cary it through successfuly. Soldiers do the acual fighting, with their skill and ability, relying on the knowledge and know-how of the commanding officers to provide them with a tactic that will prove successful.

Please disregard anything incorect about military rank, as although I understand combat fairly well, I am not interested in, and therefore dont know a great deal about, the ranking system of most military's.
Also, although I am great at the english language, I am not the best speller, so please disregard anything related to such, and a few minor gramatical errors.

Mouse at Large · Apr 26, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Try playing elemesmer......even after explaining the concept, be prepared for the inevitable...

"FFS!!! - our ele is a mesmer"